Martial Training Conundrum: Take 2

My last post apparently created a huge uproar. I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes, or hurt anyone's feelings.

I closed the comments on the last post because I was encouraged to do so, and because I needed to step away from the issue for a bit. I did what I felt was the most appropriate course of action, at that time. Honestly, I felt the questions I was trying to ask were getting lost in context of the situation I used to explain what drove me to thinking about these questions. Not because I didn't want to hear the truth or because my feelings were hurt, but because I felt comments were off topic, so I shut it down.  (Not that that stopped the comments anyway). @.@

With that being said:
I really want to try this again, without the context from the last post. I am going to ask the questions I was trying to ask in my last post, BY THEMSELVES. Ignore and disregard EVERYTHING from the last post.

Everyone is welcome to comment on this post, and believe me when I say that I DO GENUINELY want to hear everyone's opinion, and I will not shut down the comments, but please focus on the topic. THIS IS A CLEAN SLATE.


The questions I was trying postulate are these:

• When is it ok to stand up for yourself or a friend?
• Please keep in mind, this doesn't mean knocking someone's block off for calling you a name. To me, this means you say "Hey, leave that me/guy alone." maybe you call the cops. Those, to me, constitute action/intervention/standing up for yourself/someone else.
• I understand our priority as Martial Artists is to always walk away from a fight. Why? Why legally and why morally as I believe these have two different answers.
• When, or at what point, if ever, is it ethically and morally right to intervene on violence? 
• Again, to me intervention could mean calling the police, it does not necessarily mean going up to some guy and picking/joining the fight.
• When is it ok to use force to stand up for yourself or a friend?
• When is it ok to use force to DEFEND yourself? (How high does the violence have to have escalated?)
• If the answer to some of these is "ONLY when you life is on the line", WHY does it have to get that far along before you can defend yourself to the utmost of your ability? 
• Is it wrong to end violence with a preemptive strike? Be it physical or metaphorical. (punch, call for help, etc.)
• Why is it legally wrong to really put the hurt on someone if they try to hurt you first? Is it morally wrong? Why?

Now, context has a lot to do with the answers for the questions above. So context may be, verbal violence, physical violence, death is impending violence, etc. So feel free to use those types of context for you answers.  

Now, the second set of questions, which I think is more to the point of what I was trying to get at yesterday.  (Thanks Sam for articulating this for me, because I think this is a valid point, and something I want to know, it helps me understand my confusion I think)

•  One of the simple answers is simply the social context. Physical violence is not acceptable because we live in a society and society has rules. You insult me, you punch me, whatever, I punch you back, society says this is not ok, therefore society makes the rules and the rules say this is not ok, in the eyes of the law you are wrong.
• To every situation, action reaction, there are social, legal, moral, personal ramifications. Obviously you have to decide if you can live with all of these. Can you live with yourself if you do ____. Can you live with society disapproving of you if you do _____. etc.    
• This leads me to my next point. Where, when, and why did society change to its current set of rules? 
• Years ago, if you had a dispute, you went and dueled it out. 
• Further back, if someone stole from you and you caught them, you could kill them. (Or beat them up, or whatever.) 
• So, when and why did we gravitate away from these courses of action?
• Why was it ok to go out back and duke it out, settle it, and move on back then, but not now? (I will not take, 'we are more civilized and evolved now' as an answer.)

And finally, the last of the points I was trying to make. Along the same topic as bullying. We are taught and trained to walk away from any kind of confrontation. I have asked why. But I want you to consider this when answering. We were all also taught when we were little that, "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, by words will never hurt me." In my opinion, this is a lie. I understand engaging in the monkey dance is stupid. But when someone comes after you and verbally attacks you, as a person, sometimes once, sometimes repeatedly, that damage can be more devastating than a broken nose, cracked ribs, missing teeth or a black eye. That damage is lasting, weeks, months, years... I have known people that have taken their lives or that of others, or both because they are pushed to the breaking point by this verbal violence.

So when people say "In my view the mere fact that a person asks themselves if it is acceptable or appropriate to use your training to "stick up for yourself" puts the monkey in the driving seat. I believe it was written that if something does not result in some injury you can see with your eyes and record with a camera it ain't an injury or damage." I must disagree. Maybe some people have this thick of skin, but most of us don't. And some people have incredibly sharp tongues. I promise you, the effects of that kind of violence can last a life time.

Why is it so bad that we fight it out before it gets to the point of guns and knives and even more violence? Why is it so bad to stand up for yourself? I am not talking about looking for opportunities to use your skills, going out of your way to find a fight or prove yourself or anything like that. I am talking having the human decency to help yourself or someone in need. Be it calling the police, notifying the authorities, or delivering a swift punch in the nose as the situation dictates.

Call me old fashioned, idealistic, stupid, or naive if you must, but rest assured if, somewhere, someday, I see you getting bullied, mugged or gang-raped in an alley, I firmly believe it is my moral and ethical obligation to intervene and I will help you. (AGAIN, all I may be able to do is call the police and tell them what is happened and where you are, but it is still something and better than nothing in my opinion.)



Just some things to think about... Or comment on, if you so desire. Again, I promise not to close the thread, but I do ask that comments are kept on topic and are not made personal.

Hopefully my questions are presented better this time and I look forward to reading everyone's response.